Chris Thomas, Director of Legal Strategy for Education Policy at the Goldwater Institute, said that chronic absenteeism in school districts originates from COVID-related disruptions and continues to impede student learning by keeping children out of class.
“I think what you’re seeing right now is how badly COVID hurt and set everybody back,” Thomas said. “When you look at chronic absenteeism rates for these school districts, it’s been a long haul to get parents and students back into a mindset of coming to school even with a sniffle or when it’s inconvenient. You can’t learn if you’re not there.”
According to Thomas, in an interview segment, post-COVID attendance patterns are linked to broader challenges in public education performance. The discussion drew from Goldwater Institute research on Arizona schools, which examined how pandemic-era practices contributed to sustained high absenteeism. The report highlighted districts struggling to restore pre-COVID attendance norms amid changed parental and student expectations.
In Arizona, chronic absenteeism rates rose sharply during the pandemic and have remained elevated in many districts. State data show over 20 percent of students classified as chronically absent in recent school years, with some urban districts reporting figures above 30 percent. These rates correlate with lower proficiency scores in core subjects across grade levels.
Nationally, chronic absenteeism affected approximately 14.7 million students in the most recent federal data collection, representing about one in four public school students. Attendance recovery has progressed unevenly since school reopenings, with persistent gaps tied to lingering health concerns and family routines established during remote learning periods. Absent students show measurable declines in academic achievement according to longitudinal studies.
Thomas serves as Director of Legal Strategy for Education Policy at the Goldwater Institute, where he develops legal and policy initiatives to improve public education outcomes. He earned his Juris Doctor from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln and has practiced in education law, including prior roles involving school district operations and contracts in Arizona.
___________
FULL, UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT
Leyla Gulen: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Grand Canyon Times podcast. I’m your host, Layla Gula. In this episode, we welcome our guest, Chris Thomas. Chris serves as the director of Legal Strategy for Education Policy for the Goldwater Institute, and is a practicing school attorney with more than 25 years representing school districts.
And charter schools. Well, thanks so much for being here, Chris.
Chris Thomas: Thank you, Layla.
Leyla Gulen: Yeah, so the Goldwater Institute, um, recently came out with a report titled The Hidden Ways Arizona School Superintendents Are Paid. Sounds kind of juicy, but you say that what they’re paid under represents the true level of compensation.
Uh, maybe you can explain how so.
Chris Thomas: Sure. So you know when a superintendent gets paid in a a school district or if you were to just ask a superintendent members, they get paid, they’re going to tell you their base salary, but that doesn’t tell the true story of how much they are paid because [00:01:00] superintendent contracts contain up to 10, 12 different provisions that also compensate the superintendent in different ways.
And I was a. Well aware of this, having worked in, in, with public schools for so long and having written contracts for superintendents, uh, or on behalf of school districts. So I was aware of this, but what I wanted to do was sort of bring it all out into the light so that taxpayers know how superintendents are paid, what these different provisions do, they can then decide whether or not it’s fair that superintendents get compensated this way.
And what I also did is, because I also worked. You know, for 22 years with the Arizona School Boards Association as their general counsel advising school boards. And what I found over and over again is how in the dark school boards who are supposed to be supervising and evaluating, uh, the superintendent, how little they know about how the superintendent is paid, uh, how these contract provisions work.
Whether or not what they’re, they’re [00:02:00] paying their superintendent is customary compared to other districts around. And the, the data just wasn’t out there. The fair comparative data was just not out there. So one of the projects that I had sort of, you know, flagged to, to do when I came over to Goldwater was, was this project.
And, um, also it, it’s a great test case. For just seeing how, uh, transparent, super, uh, school districts are when asked for a public document that’s, you know, very, it’s clearly, clearly a public document, how quickly they could produce it, uh, whether there was any resistance that was given in getting it. And I thought that would be also a, a good test case that we could sort of grade our school districts and how they, how responsive they were and how transparent they were.
Leyla Gulen: Uh, interesting. So what specific forms of compensation beyond the base salary are Arizona school superintendents receiving?
Chris Thomas: Sure. I wanna highlight just a, just a few different ways. One is, um, uh, you know, a, a stipends, um, mostly these come into form of a [00:03:00] car allowance or an administrative allowance, and what this is, is just a, you know, a flat amount.
That is given sometimes monthly, sometimes yearly, that augments the superintendent’s salary and car allowances. You know, it’s supposed to be in lieu of, you know, maybe transportation that the superintendent may have to do in part of their job. And that, you know, su what we found was that there were superintendents that were making as much as, uh, $1,250 per month for a car allowance, uh, for the maintenance of a vehicle.
And, um, you know, I think that’s kind of shocking to people and I don’t think most people have a car payment or, or, uh, expenses that go along with a car that equal. Yeah, I mean,
Leyla Gulen: car car payments are higher now. I think the average is about $500. So that’s well above, uh, more than half or, uh, twice as much I should say.
Chris Thomas: That’s right. And I think, I think that, you know, what you’ll see is a theme for all of these areas of compensation is that it’s just another way to compensate the [00:04:00] superintendent so that, you know, that base number does not look so shocking. And, and it sort of hides the overall level of compensation. So, so the stipends were one of the, uh, ways that superintendents were paid.
Another one was just in days off. We found superintendents that received, uh, both personal days and vacation days. Uh, and these are in addition to the five weeks or so that a superintendent will get off during the school year as when the school’s not operating. Things like, you know, your fall break, your winter break, your spring break, and then every holiday in between.
So these were in addition to that and we found actually a school district where they actually gave a combined 54 days off. In addition to that, those five weeks. So that would result in almost 80 days off a year. Yeah, it’s a lot. And, and what, what’s what also the, coming back to the theme that it’s just hidden compensation is that I.
Per the contract, the superintendent can [00:05:00] cash out some of these days every year or upon leaving the district, uh, in, uh, at their per diem rate and receive a check for an additional amount of money with one particular school district. Based on the caps that they had put on the amount of leave that could be accumulated, they would’ve had to cut a check of over $160,000 on that.
Superintendent’s last day.
Leyla Gulen: Hmm. Wow. That’s a ton of money. It’s, is it, is this, is this just Arizona? I mean, I realize your focus is Arizona, but is this pretty common elsewhere in the country?
Chris Thomas: Well, I couldn’t say. I, I, I do think that superintendent contracts are probably complex in all places, but I think that the awareness of them is, is, is.
Really lost on taxpayers, probably across the country. So, uh, what we want to do, and, and, and Goldwater has a national focus as well as a state focus, we would like to bring this to light so that maybe other states can ask the same questions. You know, how are our superintendent being paid in addition to the salary that we hear [00:06:00] that’s published?
Leyla Gulen: Yeah. How much of the education budget is spent on admin salaries versus classroom instruction, for instance?
Chris Thomas: Well, that varies. I mean, the, the, for Arizona, the Auditor General, uh, which is an arm of the legislature, comes out with a report each year that lists out, you know, the categories of spending for each school district in the state.
Uh, they then list how many dollars get into the classroom, or at least our classroom related. And I think the latest figure is. Statewide is something around 54 cents of every dollar, uh, goes directly into the classroom. The, the number for the related expenses, I think, goes up to somewhere around 60 cents or 65 cents, which is, is good, but you know, the central administration sometimes is, is 15%.
18%. And, but what’s most important is that these are what they call. Maintenance and operation dollars. So it is true that [00:07:00] any dollar that is spent on administration could be spent in the classroom, but that’s determined at the local level.
Leyla Gulen: Hmm, I see. Okay. What kind of an impact. Does this have on the students, do you think?
Chris Thomas: Well, you know, good leadership should lead to a well-run school and should lead to good student outcomes. So, you know, getting a good quality superintendent and, and paying them appropriately and attracting somebody who is a good leader, who could put a team together to deliver education would be important.
This is not. A report that says that superintendents are necessarily overpaid in every instance. What this is a report is saying is that, look, this, look at all the ways that superintendents are paid. Um, but in terms of how it impacts a student, I think good leadership matters. Um, and that’s coming from the.
The superintendent from the board, from the leadership team behind it and, and hiring and, and retaining. Really [00:08:00] that’s the really important thing in Arizona and elsewhere, is just retaining those good teachers and rewarding them appropriately. So once you have good teachers, uh, it, it ultimately always comes down to a teacher and a student and everything from the school board to the superintendent, um, to the bus driver.
Anything in in between has to be supporting that. So has to be supporting that relationship between the student and the teacher.
Leyla Gulen: Yeah. You know, teachers across the board all over the country are systemically underpaid. So when you and I realize a superintendent’s job is a big one, you know, you’re overseeing so many different schools and so many different aspects of the educational system.
What would you say is a fair baseline when compared to what teachers are getting paid? Because those teachers, they’re in the trenches. They’re in the classroom every single day. In many cases, they pay out of pocket for supplies, which is just [00:09:00] asinine and. Their compensation falls, in my opinion below what is actually deserved considering the challenges that they’re all facing, particularly today.
In today’s world. Yeah.
Chris Thomas: Right. I, I completely agree with that. And in terms of, you know, you know, whether or not there ought to be, you know, a superintendent is paid a factor of whatever the base salary is or what the average salary is for a teacher in the, in the school district. I couldn’t say. I mean, it.
You know, when you look at school districts, they’re probably flatter than, than most corporations, for instance, where the super, the, the CEO may make 80 times the what, you know, a an average worker works, uh, makes it in school districts it typically is, you know, four or five times the amount or, or maybe perhaps a little more, but I think.
If the, if the leadership is strong and they’re getting the results that the community wants and, uh, the students are learning, I think that we wouldn’t put a [00:10:00] cap on what a superintendent ought to make. Uh, that’s up for the school board. It’s up for the community to decide, but the results ought to be there.
And we found examples where, um, you know, for instance, the highest paid superintendent of the state has pretty, you know, mediocre academic results. When you actually look at the proficiency levels that the students have, and there doesn’t seem to be any tie in that particular instance, uh, with what that person is paid and, and how the students are doing.
Mm.
Leyla Gulen: And you say that school districts are not being transparent in sharing this information, so why are school districts not required to fully disclose superintendent compensation packages to the public? I mean, I would think that you should be able to shine light on every aspect of every dollar. And to whom and why it’s going there?
Chris Thomas: Well, I mean. In a word. I think it’s embarrassing. I think, I think that that these are are numbers that are hard to defend to the public, [00:11:00] and because of that, there’s a reticence to disclose it. Now what we advocate is that this shouldn’t be a secret. There are three states in the country, Indiana, Illinois, and Texas, that require every school district to publish their superintendent.
Contract online on their school district’s website. We think Arizona ought to join in that effort. And in fact, there’s one school district in the state that voluntarily has done so. Uh, the Flagstaff Unified School District, we give them a shout out in our report as an A plus transparent district because they do that and we think that other school districts ought to follow.
Mm-hmm.
Leyla Gulen: Yeah, indeed. That would obviously take a vote, I’d imagine. So the legislation would have to change in that effect?
Chris Thomas: Well, no, I, I mean, I think school districts can do it on their own. Right now there’s nothing in the law that would say that they couldn’t do it. It’s not a private document. These in every, and, you know, every incident, this is a, a public record that it has to be disclosed if [00:12:00] somebody asks for it.
What we’re saying is that you shouldn’t have to jump through hoops to get it.
Leyla Gulen: Yeah.
Chris Thomas: Um, it should just be there for everybody to see.
Leyla Gulen: Yeah, absolutely. Have any of the school districts responded to the report?
Chris Thomas: Uh, we have heard, I mean, there, we actually got a, a, an email the other day from, uh, the Mesa Public Schools that wanted some clarification on, on how their superintendent was paid and, and suggesting that, you know, their performance pay was going to be donated to their foundation, which we thought was admirable.
And, uh, once we get documentation of that, we will update our report. Uh, but it certainly has gotten a lot of attention and, you know, I, I have a lot of friends that I still consider friends, uh, over that work in, in public schools. I hope that this is not seen as a hostile action. Um, but. Ultimately, we all work for the taxpayers.
You know, public schools work for the taxpayers. So, um, we think that this is just a, a way to bring light to, uh, to, to what is happening. And, you know, we hope that that school districts take [00:13:00] that in, in that, uh, vein.
Leyla Gulen: Sure. And for taxpayers to review or challenge. Superintendent compensation packages, are there any mechanisms currently in place?
Can they write a letter, get a, a clear response? Would they be flat out denied the information if they asked for it?
Chris Thomas: Well, you know, they can’t, they might be denied because we were certainly stonewalled a number of times when we tried to get it from some school districts. Uh, but if they’re persistent and, um, you know, certainly we would like to hear from them if they’re not able to get it.
Um, what I find interesting, and I, I mentioned before that I worked for the School Board Association. I can’t tell you how many times over 22 years I heard from a school board member who said. I have asked to see our superintendent’s contract and the superintendent won’t give it to me.
Leyla Gulen: Really?
Chris Thomas: So if you’re a school board member and you’re not able even able to see it, that’s pretty shocking.
So it just so goes to show you [00:14:00] there’s, there’s different cultures in every school district. Um, there’s, you know, some embrace transparency, some embrace that public accountability and some run for it. From it and, and what we want is that they all understand that they’re dealing with public dollars. They have to be accountable, and that that requires transparency.
Leyla Gulen: What about a FOIA request?
Chris Thomas: Absolutely. Well, all of these are, can be, uh, released for a FOIA request. But again, that’s something that, again, these are hoops that you have to jump through, so you’d have to go on the district’s website. You’d have to find out if they have a, a portal that you can request information, or if it requires an email to somebody, and finding that person who, who is in charge of it some takes some work to do and then following up, because oftentimes we.
Would find that we would send information there and ask request for information, but we wouldn’t get a response. And what’s also troubling is almost all [00:15:00] records are electronic now. You know, they’re on somebody’s computer. Sure. Um, not a lot of, lot of, not a lot of paper files out there, but may school districts would say, well, we don’t give electronic records.
We won’t, we won’t give, if we ask, if you ask for an electronic record, they will then instead go to the electronic record. Print it out and then charge you a copying and searching fee for that. And it’s a way to dissuade, uh, you from asking for it in the first place. And there’s no reason why you couldn’t respond to an email that asked for an electronic record with a copy of that record in a PDF format so nobody can mess with it or anything.
Mm-hmm. Um, there’s no reason why that shouldn’t happen.
Leyla Gulen: Yeah. Paper. Charge a charge for a paper copy if you were to go so far as to actually pay for it. That sounds like a tax deduction. You would think so. Well, shouldn’t it be, I mean, this is a taxpayer requesting information about their dollars going [00:16:00] somewhere and they’d like answers and then they’re made to pay for it.
I would think that that would be a tax deduction to the IRS.
Chris Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and you know what’s interesting I think is that, you know, the state law says that, that a school district can, uh, charge for copies, right? But it’s just for the paper that’s involved in the cost of copying it. They can’t charge for searching the record.
They can’t charge for redactions if those are required or sending it to their lawyer to review all. None of that can be recouped. They can only charge for the actual copies. And when you’re talking about electronic. Copy that’s being sent over. There is no material cost. So really there’s no justification for a copying fee at that point at all.
Leyla Gulen: So what are you hoping to also enlighten the taxpayer on what they can do through this report? Because, you know. Public policy will have to do better. Obviously, policy changes to make [00:17:00] things more transparent will have to happen, but you gotta get people on board enough. People need to understand what’s at stake here and what their rights truly are.
So how do you go about doing that? How do you make that shift?
Chris Thomas: Well, we do it by, you know, uh, talking about it. We, you know, we, we put out the report. We’ve got the data that’s out there. You know, we’ve been, we’ve been talking to anybody who will listen. Uh, we appreciate being on this podcast and talking about it.
Um, we have alerted, uh, state policy makers about it, and there’s a great deal of interest there. We’re talking to school districts as well. Um, this is, this is for school board, uh, members as well. Uh, we hope that they take this information. I’ll bet you some of them have never seen comparative data like this, uh, so that next time they have a superintendent contract that they need to write, that they have some comparative data to decide whether or not what they’re offering is fair.
Sure. So, you know, we, we, we’d like to see, you know, uh, that it be taken to the [00:18:00] next level and perhaps Arizona ought to join those three states in requiring. You know, full transparency.
Leyla Gulen: You know, it could be a sea change across the country, you know, if, if three states have already done it. Do you know how long those three states have been doing this?
Chris Thomas: I could not tell you, but I, I, you know, but, uh, you know, we do think that Arizona ought to join them. You know, generally speaking, Arizona has a pretty open process with regard to public records. You’re, you’re, you’re really a. Able to see just about everything. Mm-hmm. So this is just taking one extra step and, and our public records laws sort of need to keep up with technology as well.
Now that everybody has a website, now that everybody has, you know, some sort of board document management system where you can go see their board documents and things that are coming up on their board meetings and things like that, there’s no reason why the superintendent’s contract shouldn’t be there next to their policies and, and their rules and regulations and all, everything else.
Leyla Gulen: Yeah. Uh, what is the state of Arizona public schools right [00:19:00] now? Uh, are, are there a lot of underperforming schools? Are they doing better? Are you seeing any improvements in test scores?
Chris Thomas: Well, I think what you see, what you’re seeing right now is, um, uh. How badly COVID, you know, hurt and set everybody back.
Yeah. You know, not only in the learning, uh, you know, for those children that were directly affected, but also sort of changing the paradigm about, uh, what’s the expectation of just coming to school. You look at the, the absentee rates, uh, the chronic absentee rates for these school districts, and it’s been a long haul for these districts to, you know, get people, get parents and students back into a mode of no, you know, you come to school even if you have a sniffle, even if it’s inconvenient, the expectation is you come to school because you look at some of these chronic absentee rates and, uh, and that, that’s defined as a student who misses 10 or more days during the [00:20:00] school year.
That, that ultimately is, you know, we’re, we’re seeing 30% sometimes chronic absentee rates in some of these school districts. And you can’t learn if you’re not there. And not only that, um, if you’re not there often enough, uh. The entire class suffers because the, the teacher is having to remediate all the time to get everybody back on the same page.
So I think that’s a big impact that, you know, the, the, the sort of the, the, the continuing impacts of COVID, even though it’s five years in the rear view mirror, it still plays, uh, an impact and everybody’s trying to get back to that. But, you know, in our, in our, you know, at Goldwater, we, we are all about school choice.
And if. A parent is not happy with their local school. Um, they have options. They have options. They can, they can, uh, do an ESA where they can go to a private school or homeschool or, or, or do some combination of tutoring and homeschool. They can go to, a student can go to a charter school. Um, they can.
Utilize open enrollment, and there are [00:21:00] many, uh, where, where, you know, you go to a different school district other than your homeschool district because you believe that the offerings are better there. So we, we believe in empowering parents and, uh, you know, giving them the choices to find the best situation for their child.
Leyla Gulen: Right. And how is that going with school choice? Because I know that, uh, you’ve got obviously the, the two camps, uh, the one camp that says you’re taking money away from the public school system to do this, and then others who really do champion the concept. So how, how has that been going in the state of Arizona?
Chris Thomas: Well, you know, I, I think it would be going a lot better if the people that work in public schools and and advocate for public schools finally understand that they’re in a competitive environment now. I mean, really understand it that, that that parental choice is a good thing and that rather than. You know, trying to tear down the other choice options that they, you know, make their school the best it can be.[00:22:00]
And, and look at the marketplace, uh, of, of education and create programs. That people want. And, um, whether they’re high achieving programs, um, you know, things like, uh, learning extra languages, advanced programs like, uh, you know, IB programs, all those kind of programs that attract. Enrollment school, school districts out there ought to embrace, and, you know, the idea that choice takes away from the public schools.
I, I reject that notion. You know, school districts have to earn the enrollment. They have to earn a, a parent’s trust and taking it for granted like they did 50 years ago. You know, that’s, it’s a good thing that that’s not the case anymore.
Leyla Gulen: Right, right. Absolutely. Uh, what else are you working on over there at Goldwater?
Do you have anything coming down the pike?
Chris Thomas: Well, you know, this is always our mode of, of, of looking at the next legislative session. [00:23:00] We’re we’re developing policy ideas and education in other, other places. Um, you know, trying to, uh. You know, for instance, we’re we, we’d love to see school board meetings be more transparent.
Uh, we’d love to to ban school district school boards from having retreats that are not in the school district where they go to five star resorts and, um, have a retreat like that. Uh, that luckily is, is, is becoming more of a thing of the past, but it’s still legal to do it. And we would love to. Change that.
Uh, we’d like to have some reforms in our open meeting laws that, again, create a more public transparency and, and always empowering parents to make, uh, parental choice. That’s always at the top of our agenda.
Leyla Gulen: Absolutely. For anybody who wants more information or if we’ve got some listeners out there that can follow up and start asking questions, where should they go?
Chris Thomas: They should go to goldwater institute.org. That is where you’ll find all of our papers on, uh, an education, uh, updates about, uh, various things that we’re working on. Our, our [00:24:00] job is to try to make, uh, give Arizonans the chance to, to live freer happier lives. And, uh, we have, we do that in a multitude of ways, not only with legislation and working with policy makers, but also in the courts where we defend individual freedom.
Leyla Gulen: Wonderful. Chris Thomas, thank you so much for joining us.
Chris Thomas: Thank you so much for having me.
